Welding HSS to mild steel. Type of Tig rod? I asked (basically) the same question on the welding forum, but this gets more traffic, so.When Tig welding these types of steels together, what type of Tig rod would be best? The parts are around 3'square on the mild part and 1' square for the hardened HSS.
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Joining mild steel to HSS?
What type of TIG rod/material would one prefer to join your average mild steel (think 1045) to HSS or high carbon/high chrome tool steels (D2, A2, etc...) that ARE in the hardened state? Pieces of the mild steel would be approx. 3' square, while the piece of hardened steel would be about one inch square.
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Brazing is the best way
The title says it all.
Braze it with your choice of brazing rod or even silver solder.
HSS does not weld very well...you can sort of stick it together but it's not easy to make a reliable weld.
Cheers
Marcus
Implant Mechanix – Design & Innovation - home
BTW: 1045 is not mild steel...it's got enough carbon in it to qualify as a medium carbon steel and needs preheat to be successfully welded. - Diamond
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can you say what you are making?
I weld HSS (CPM M4) to A36 (mild/structural steel) to make plane irons. But the CPM M4 is normalized at time of weld, annealed right after, then ground, the mild steel is machined, and the whole shebang then hardened (well the CPM-M4 hardens) and tempered.
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We will do this same procedure but vacuum braze the M-4 to A-36 and harden the M-4 all in 1 shot.Originally Posted by stephen thomascan you say what you are making?
I weld HSS (CPM M4) to A36 (mild/structural steel) to make plane irons. But the CPM M4 is normalized at time of weld, annealed right after, then ground, the mild steel is machined, and the whole shebang then hardened (well the CPM-M4 hardens) and tempered.
smt
What I mean is the brazing and hardening, we do not weld.
I believe in over 40 years of doing this we have never had a failure where the braze does not hold.
I believe brazing is the best way for HSS or SHSS. - Diamond
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Cash,
I'd like to have the option of doing that. But not enough equipment here. I have a regular (controllable) pot furnace and use foil pouch with a bit of brown paper for the atmosphere exclusion.
Not looking at my data sheets at the moment, but IIRC, I'm hitting ~2150F for toughness & soaking before air quench. When do you introduce the silver? What keeps it from partially vaporizing, if put in on the way up and held to 2050F+ ? Not questioning the process, i want to know how.
BTW, mine are end butts, 5/32 thick. 'Blade' portion is ~1-1/4' long, shank/A36 part is ~6'+ long.
I do not bat 100% at the weld stage. Closer to 60%, though i know how to improve it. Basically with one pass weld, i can pretty much eliminate cracking. However, without fixturing, which i really should do, it is difficult to estimate or eliminate the pull to one side. So I usually flip and do a back pass. This makes a better weld of the successful pieces and straightens everything out, but 30 - 40% crack on the front side. So (for me) the big thing would be to make a simple fixture/support, with the 2 pieces slightly 'humped up' in the middle that would pull straight in one pass.
FWIW, I also get best results after giving up TIG and going back to Oxy-Acetylene, with a bare rod with the copper sanded off. The welding store suggested the Eutectic stuff many years ago and i tried it, but they only had the flux coated, and arc welding while easy, made the most distortion & cracked more pieces. I did not know to try it with the flux knocked off as has been mentioned. I used stainless rod, when TIGing. But again, the mild steel and O-A works surprisingly well, if the parts are put in the anneal cycle right away (which takes about ~24 hrs total to ramp down)
smt - Diamond
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What I am going to try is welding/brazing hardened pieces of steel to lathe chuck jaws. The pieces will be rectangular (square was just to attempt to simplify explanation) Joints would be butt-style with healthy chamfers for the weld. That is IF welded, rather than brazed. I will try to get A2 or D2 rather than HSS, but from what I see, HSS pieces of the closest to finished size, would probably be easier to find. Part of the objective is to avoid the need to send out for it to be hardened.
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Try some stainless filler either 308 or 316 it makes a more ductile weld and will help reduce the cracking. Any preheat will also reduce the cracking issues.
Braze is pretty much the gold standard industry proven approach though. - Diamond
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Originally Posted by adamaTry some stainless filler either 308 or 316 it makes a more ductile weld and will help reduce the cracking. Any preheat will also reduce the cracking issues.
Braze is pretty much the gold standard industry proven approach though.
Thanks, that is good to know since I have access to plenty of 316SS Tig rod/filler at this time!
Jeff - cashTitanium
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When we do this in the vacuum furnace we actually harden first, 2150 for HSS is about right. But the brazing is actually don when we quench the parts. We slow cool for a bit then when the braze is solid we fast cool to get the hardness out of our HSS.Originally Posted by stephen thomasCash,
I'd like to have the option of doing that. But not enough equipment here. I have a regular (controllable) pot furnace and use foil pouch with a bit of brown paper for the atmosphere exclusion.
Not looking at my data sheets at the moment, but IIRC, I'm hitting ~2150F for toughness & soaking before air quench. When do you introduce the silver? What keeps it from partially vaporizing, if put in on the way up and held to 2050F+ ? Not questioning the process, i want to know how.
BTW, mine are end butts, 5/32 thick. 'Blade' portion is ~1-1/4' long, shank/A36 part is ~6'+ long.
I do not bat 100% at the weld stage. Closer to 60%, though i know how to improve it. Basically with one pass weld, i can pretty much eliminate cracking. However, without fixturing, which i really should do, it is difficult to estimate or eliminate the pull to one side. So I usually flip and do a back pass. This makes a better weld of the successful pieces and straightens everything out, but 30 - 40% crack on the front side. So (for me) the big thing would be to make a simple fixture/support, with the 2 pieces slightly 'humped up' in the middle that would pull straight in one pass.
FWIW, I also get best results after giving up TIG and going back to Oxy-Acetylene, with a bare rod with the copper sanded off. The welding store suggested the Eutectic stuff many years ago and i tried it, but they only had the flux coated, and arc welding while easy, made the most distortion & cracked more pieces. I did not know to try it with the flux knocked off as has been mentioned. I used stainless rod, when TIGing. But again, the mild steel and O-A works surprisingly well, if the parts are put in the anneal cycle right away (which takes about ~24 hrs total to ramp down)
smt - Diamond
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Judging by what it is, and what it is made to adhere to...wouldn't hard-facing rod be a (theoretically) good possibility to joining mild steel to HSS or hardened 'High chrome/High carbon steels? Just a thought. Or...can you 'build-up' hard-facing' welds fairly high/deep? I might be able to go that route on some of the ideas I have.
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If you just want an overlay, you can buy HSS tig rods. There are other rods that will give deposits in the Rc 55 range without subsequent heat treating.
Hard surfacing rod would typically not be at all useful for joining any metals. With hardsurfacing rods you are not worried about the integrity of the weld, so cracking is tolerated. Where you are welding hardened metal without annealing a filler material with maximum ductility is desired.
A couple of local to you manufacturers are Eureka and Crown in Madison Heights. - Diamond
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Originally Posted by gbentHard surfacing rod would typically not be at all useful for joining any metals. With hardsurfacing rods you are not worried about the integrity of the weld, so cracking is tolerated. Where you are welding hardened metal without annealing a filler material with maximum ductility is desired.
.
I see what you are saying. That makes sense.
Thanks to everyone for all the information. As usual, very educational!
Jeff
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A Square tube is a hollow structure metallic tube with a square geometry and has a widespread applications in the world. The tube is also available in other shapes like circular and rectangular. Unlike pipe the square tube has four sides with curved profile corners and are available in wide range of material grades and dimensions. Hollow square tubes can be applied to manufacture a variety of products with innovative designs and welding is the foremost technique to join them. Below is the brief description on the welding procedure of square tubing.
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Clamping
Slight pressure on the pieces to avoid any disposition. In order to keep the joint assembly intact, suitable clamping tools are available in market. Sometimes manual clamping is endorsed by welders by making temporary supports. Tolerable pressure on the work piece allows good tacking.
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